Men's Agenda in Scotland - Roundtable Discussion, 20 November 2008, Conference Rm 2, Victoria Quay, 10.00 to 12.00
MINUTES
Present:
Scottish Government & Agencies
Yvonne Strachan (Chair) Equality Unit
Christine Reid Equality Unit
Stephen Krzyzanowski Equality Unit
Bruce Sutherland Community Justice Services
Alastair Merrill Scottish Prison Service
Mark Ward Men's Health Forum Scotland
Maureen Dunn Men's Health Forum Scotland
Akin Fatunmbi Men in Mind
Jonathan Sher Children in Scotland
Katrina Allan Children in Scotland
Kenny Spence Men in Childcare
David McKenna Victim Support Scotland
Apologies:
Scottish Government & Agencies
Geoff Huggins Mental Health
Mike Palmer Substance Misuse & Support
Ruth Thomson Support for Learning
Alistair Pringle Patient Focus
John Wilkes Scottish Refugee Counci
Tony McLare Breathing Space
Martin Cawley Turning Point Scotland
Charlie McMillan Scottish Assoc. for Mental Health
David Manion Age Concern Scotland
Monica Wilson CHANGE
Andrew Douglas-McAdam
Keith Cowan
CONTEXT
1. Following roundtable introductions, the Chair explained that the Equality Unit's work on gender equality had concentrated largely on women's issues because women disproportionately experienced discrimination and inequality. However, there was a need to do more around men's issues and seek men's contribution to the broader issues around equality. This had been acknowledged by making 'improving networks with men' a high level objective in the Scottish Government's Gender Equality Scheme.
2. Those invited to the meeting had been drawn from Equality Unit contacts, internal and external, across equality strands and therefore represented a variety of interests. Attendees would have the opportunity to speak about their particular areas of interest and contribute generally. One person, who had been unable to attend the meeting, had spoken to the Chair about violence against men, so this too would be discussed. However, the meeting agenda would not be rigid.
3. It was not intended that the meeting be a one-off. It would be open to attendees to advise about future meetings/viability of setting up a network to improve consultation with men.
4. It would be relevant to raise and discuss issues concerning all males (including boys/young men) at the meeting.
5. The Chair then outlined the benefit of the Gender Equality Duty, which had increased the focus/raised the discussion on equality for women and men in the public sector, highlighting that it was not about treating everyone the same: women's and men's needs might differ.
6. There were areas where men were experiencing disadvantage because of assumptions about what was appropriate for women and men. Examples given were accessibility of fathers to paternity leave and flexible working and accessibility of men to jobs in childcare. The more that could be done to remedy such disadvantage/inequality, the better this would be for women as well as for men in terms of life/work balance, and the better this would be for their children and for achieving a more equal society.
7. The Scottish Government was focused on outcomes, meaning it conducted its business differently. Equalities legislation was changing. There were currently 3 public sector duties - for Race, Gender and Disability. However, the Single Equality Bill was being laid before the Westminster Parliament in 2009 and this would bring about a Single Equality Duty, covering all 6 equality strands, which would mean a change to the framework within which we worked.
8. The Chair explained the background to the Gender Equality Ministerial Duty and the meeting paper which provided further background (attached in the Annex). Once Ministers had identified the priorities under the Duty, they would be committed to report on these in 2010. The Chair invited the meeting to identify the key issues for men in Scotland, asking that thought should be given about how these might fit with the Gender Equality Ministerial Duty.
KEY ISSUES FOR MEN IN SCOTLAND
9. During discussion, the following points were made:
· Confirmation that the Gender Equality Duty had been positive in that public bodies now had a legal requirement to take action to promote gender equality - rather than wait and react after discrimination had occurred.
· Importance and challenge of mainstreaming gender equality effectively across public service policy and service delivery, making this part of everyone's agenda and not just falling within the remit of a few specialised posts
· Single Equality Bill welcomed. It reflected the cultural change needed in Scotland not over 20-25 years but over 3 years. Important to tailor services to the individual.
· If able to produce policies and provide services sensitive to women's needs, we could get it right for men.
Putting Men back into Children's Lives
· Importance of the role of fathers (paternity leave and access to flexible working) and other men within the family, exposing the child to both genders as carers.
· Importance of training for fathers to ensure they are good fathers - beneficial for mothers too.
· Suggestion that there was a need to be explicit in our use of language - stop using 'parent' (because child services had come to interpret this as 'mother') and use 'mother and father' instead.
· The issue of missing fathers was worse now than during World War II - a universal issue that needed to be effectively addressed by looking at i) legislative barriers to men's involvement with their children and ii) measures adopted in other countries to redress the problem e.g. legislative change in Belgium.
· Need to ensure no bias in recruitment panels towards recruiting women and against men for jobs in childcare - panels should focus on the skills and experience of the candidate.
· Useful to get data from education services/analytical services about the numbers of men who go into primary school teacher training and the numbers who subsequently go on to a permanent placement - together with any information on why men felt they could not go into primary school education. (It was clarified that relevant information about men in childcare and primary teaching could be found in the Gender Audit (28 March 2007) and in the report of the cross-directorate working group on occupational segregation (29 August 2008). Links to both documents were sent to meeting attendees on 27 November 2008.)
· Need to publicise examples of good practice e.g. men in childcare and in primary teaching.
· Problem attracting both genders to apply for jobs in the police and prisons. Male role models for boys and young men were critical outside the family too.
· There was a lot of work to do to challenge deeply embedded assumptions in society about the roles of men and women in society and this would take time.
Men's Health
· Men's low perception of themselves was important and relevant to mental health problems and high suicide rates.
· Regarding men's mental health, it was important to recognise that men perceived themselves as workers (not necessarily as providers) and there were perceptions in society of what constituted as volunteering that we might need to challenge e.g. there was a perception that not many BME men volunteer (in the traditional sense e.g. with the Boys Brigade) but men may do voluntary work in Mosques (which would not traditionally be perceived as volunteering). Issue for BME men with mental health problems.
· Important to consider how we deliver health services to men.
· With regard to men's health, there was a need not to look at men as a homogenous group: there was need to look more broadly at masculinity. A project following the Glasgow 2020 idea was suggested. Men 2020 might engage men in a national debate about how masculinity was perceived now and how we might want it to be perceived in 2010.
Men and Crime/Violence
· Men were the perpetrators and victims of violent crime in Scotland. 30% of all men in Scotland over the age of 40 had a criminal record and two-thirds of all violence committed was against men (albeit mostly by men). We needed to look at the cause and effect and address men's inability/reluctance to access support services. (Men were 5 times less likely to access these.)
· We needed to look at connections between crime in our communities and mental health.
· Criminalisation of men (sending to prison) was increasing and this was a concern. It was argued that women who committed crime got more opportunity to avoid being detained in corrective institutions like prison, often being offered alternative sentences and support, whereas men were not perceived as needing support and were more likely to be detained.
· In considering child support cases where the mother was on drugs, it was suggested that authorities tended to make allowances for a mother failing in the care of her child but not for a father in a similar situation. There was a need to consider the attitudinal issues, not just the legal issues.
· Stopping Reoffending - There was a need to consider the consequences of the absence of male role models and of limited expectations. In this regard, it would be helpful to look at the Violent Crime Agenda in 2007 - a study looking at individuals from the cradle to the grave to determine how possible interventions might stop/alter their life course.
· Violence Against Men - The Chair explained that most cases of domestic abuse involved men's violence against women. However, any violence was unacceptable. Earlier research had indicated that there was no need for additional or different support services for men experiencing violence. However, recent evidence showed that the number of reported cases of violence against men was increasing. There was a recognition that this issue needed to be looked at again and consideration given to whether there was now a need for specific support or intervention. Work was currently ongoing with regard to domestic abuse in same-sex relationships.
Engaging with Men
· There was a need to think imaginatively about how to engage effectively with/consult men. It was recognised that this would not be an easy task as there were few relevant men's organisations. Nevertheless, this was something which should be given further consideration.
WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?
10. It was agreed that it would be useful to reflect on the outcomes of the meeting and meet again in Spring 2009 - perhaps with wider representation - for an update on the Single Equality Bill.
11. Recommendations for any other individuals/organisations who/which should be invited to contribute to future meetings should be sent to: The Equalities Unit, Area 2-G(S), Victoria Quay, Edinburgh EH6 6QQ
12. Points raised at meetings would be fed back to relevant areas throughout the Scottish Government so that these could help inform priorities and policy development.
13. There would be the possibility to focus on a particular issue of concern to men in some detail at a future meeting.
14. Transgender issues - not covered at the meeting - were mentioned as a possible area for discussion at a future meeting.
15. Any ideas for a better way of connecting with men about issues which concern them should be sent to: The Equalities Unit, Area 2-G(S), Victoria Quay, Edinburgh EH6 6QQ
Scottish Government
Equality Unit