COUNCIL TAX WORKING GROUP: MEETING: 26 JANUARY 2004: CONFERENCE ROOM 12, VICTORIA QUAY, EDINBURGH
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Present:
Scottish Executive Nikola Plunkett (Chair)
Billy McKenzie
Dave Signorini
Anna Gilbert
Local authority representation Drew Leitch
Lynne Brady
Care Organisations Derek Given (Cyrinians)
Andy Hemming (CATH)
COSLA Allan Traynor
James Thomson
Mike Peterson
Scottish Assessors Eddie Duffy
Joan Hewton
Agenda Item 1: Apologies
1. Apologies were received from Elaine McCue from COSLA
Agenda Item 2: Minutes from last meeting (paper 05/02)
2. Nikola Plunkett referred to the previous minutes and asked for any comments. James Thomson referred to paragraph 15 and asked that it be noted that he would contact another 2 or 3 local authorities regarding membership of the group but not specifically Glasgow.
3. Nikola Plunkett asked COSLA for an update regarding the securing of additional local authority members to sit on the Working Group. James Thomson advised that he has spoken to some local authorities and their view was that they were happy to feed in to the work of the group through the Revenues Forum or through Heads of Finance. However not all local authorities had been asked and both Lynn Brady and Drew Leitch expressed an interest on behalf of their Council. James Thomson said that he would again take this back to COSLA and report back at the next meeting regarding the additional members to be represented on the Group.
4. Nikola Plunkett turned to the unoccupied dwelling discount regulations and advised the group that these would probably be approved that afternoon. Allan Traynor asked if these had been subjected to any change and it was confirmed that they had not and that a circular would be issued.
5. Nikola Plunkett advised that she was still awaiting details from COSLA and the local authorities on software implications in light of the new regulations. The Local Government and Transport Committee of the Scottish Parliament had also requested details of this. Mike Peterson advised that at present no information was available on costings until the regulations were approved by Parliament. Now the regulations were almost approved COSLA would formally write to local authorities requesting details of the additional funding required due to software changes and pass this to the Scottish Executive for consideration.
Agenda Item 3: Valuation of Care Homes (paper 05/03)
6. Billy McKenzie introduced this paper which offered 2 options on how these properties should be valued. It was expressed that hopefully this meeting would agree a way forward regarding the form of wording to be used. The objective is to return the situation to that prior to the Regulation of Care (ROC) Scotland Act 2001. It was made clear to the group that the any Order would require to be laid in the Scottish Parliament by 3 March in order for it to come into force on 1 April 2005.
7. A general discussion took place and initially the preference of the group was to bring the care homes back into the NDR system. However the crucial issue was the form of words to be used which would allow Assessors to identify the appropriate properties. It was accepted that this might prove difficult. It was not intended that additional properties should be brought into the NDR system that were not included prior to the introduction of the ROC Act. There were no suggestions put forward and it was agreed that those present would reflect on a suitable form of words that could be used to bring the appropriate homes back into NDR and forward any proposals to Billy McKenzie.
8. Nikola Plunkett moved the discussion on to Houses of Multiple Occupation (HMO's). This issue was raised by Drew Leitch who was concerned that homes that could be seen to qualify as HMO's were being assessed as separate dwellings for CT purposes. Eddie Duffy advised the group that it should be remembered that the definition of HMO's for Council Tax purposes is different to that for licensing purposes, this helped to explain the misunderstanding. Billy McKenzie asked the Group whether, in light of Eddie Duffy's point, this issue needed to be considered further. The view of the Group was that the current definition is sufficient and there is no need for change.
9. Eddie Duffy, Joan Hewton, Andy Hemming, Derek Given and Lynne Brady were thanked for their contribution and left at this point.
Agenda Item 4: Best Practice re debt recovery measures: Summary of responses (paper 05/04)
10. Nikola Plunkett referred to the meeting in July and confirmed that the working group had written to local authorities and had received 19 responses offering suggestions on best practice in relation to debt recovery. The group were asked for their comments on the suggestions listed. Allan Traynor stated that there needs to be separate policy and strategic issues as to what is best practice and that the issues suggested in the first two bullet points were for DWP to address as they impinged on benefit issues which are reserved to Westminster. Mike Peterson added that he was aware that the Scottish Executive had already approached DWP to look at these issues and were turned down. It was agreed that Billy McKenzie would again approach DWP asking for a view on the issues relevant to them.
11. Dave Signorini pointed out that some of the suggestions were more about debt avoidance rather than debt recovery. Allan Traynor said that some of the suggestions were already in the best practice guidance, however the administrative approach from different local authorities varied widely due to the internal legal advice of each authority. He asked if the Executive could get clarification on legal opinions in order that the approach to debt recovery was uniform. Billy McKenzie advised that he would seek legal advice on the relevant issues with a view to possibly circulating this to local authorities. However if issued the guidance would be advice only and should not be seen as a definitive view.
12. Mike Peterson made the group aware that there had been little in the way of DAS guidance. It was agreed that this lay with the Justice Department and that when the advice was forthcoming the best practice guidance should be updated to reflect the DAS guidance.
13. Allan Traynor supported the suggestions made regarding giving local authorities powers to refuse licenses to, for example, drive a taxi, or sell liquor if the applicant was due the local authority back taxes. Billy McKenzie asked if a list of the regulations that would require amending to give local authorities these powers could be produced by COSLA . Mike Peterson agreed that this would be done in time for the next meeting of the Working Group.
14. Drew Leitch stated that as some Assessors take considerable time to Band properties it can result in arrears building up by the time the bill is issued which can lead to problems. It was agreed that there is a need for closer working between the Assessors and the local authorities and that this was worth looking at. Nikola Plunkett agreed to look into this and re-present it at the next meeting.
15. Allan Traynor did not agree that the use of a special debt recovery team should be mandatory. He felt that it is be more appropriate for local authorities to "consider" the use of such teams. This was agreed.
Agenda Item 5: Council tax collection rates research
16. Nikola Plunkett informed the group that Tom McCabe, Minister for Finance has asked for research to be undertaken into the council tax collection rates in Scotland in comparison to the rest of the UK. An outside body will be commissioned to undertake this work and researchers will be asked to go out and speak to non-payers/money advice centres to gauge the reasons for non-payment. The group expressed their interest in this research and its outcome. It was also stated that it would be interesting to see if water charges stood out as a problem as they are not covered by council tax benefit. Dave Signorini stated that there was a need to understand whether the problem was due to the refusal to pay or the inability to pay.
17. Nikola Plunkett went on to advise the group of the wish to establish a research advisory group which would cover a broad specification and that the research was expected to report by September. Nikola Plunkett expressed her wish to have one representative from COSLA to be part of the advisory group and it was agreed that COSLA would formally nominate a representative.
Agenda Item 6: Council Tax liability: Landlords/Tenants issue (paper 05/05)
18. Drew Leitch informed the group that difficulties in collection are arising due to tenants who walk out on their lease still being liable for council tax, rather than the owner of the property. The problem arises due to it being difficult for the local authority to locate such tenants. It was asked if there was any way to address this problem. Billy McKenzie asked the group if they felt that this was a problem that had to be addressed. Drew Leitch proceeded to read an e-mail from Glasgow City Council who also feel the issue is causing collection difficulties and that legislation should be amended to ensure liability will fall to the landlord in the event of the tenant disappearing. After some discussion the remaining members of COSLA expressed the opinion that this did not appear to be a large enough problem to justify changing legislation. However it was agreed that this issue could be looked at via the research project outlined above, if it was found to be a problem further consideration could be given.
Agenda Item 7: Local Taxation web pages
19. Nikola Plunkett made the group aware that there is now a webpage available on the Scottish Executive website dedicated to local taxation. Comments on the website from the group will be welcome. Minutes from the Working Group would be placed on this site.
Agenda Item 8: Any other business
20. Allan Traynor asked what stage e-billing was at. Nikola Plunkett informed him that legislation will hopefully be in place for 1 April 2006 and that this would cover both council tax and non-domestic rates.
21. Allan Traynor also asked if there is a formal channel for local authorities to discuss NDR issues and it transpired there were none. Nikola Plunkett suggested that the council tax working group could be expanded to encompass this topic and that NDR issues could be covered on an ad hoc basis. The group agreed to this and it was decided that the group should now be named The Local Taxation Working Group.
Agenda Item 9: Date of next meeting
22. It was agreed that the next meeting should be toward the end of April 2005. Anna Gilbert will contact members to arrange a convenient date.
Action:
Scottish Executive:
- Billy McKenzie to approach DWP re best practice suggestions
- Billy McKenzie to seek legal advice on the relevant best practice suggestions with a view to issuing a CTWG (now LTWG) guidance note
- Nikola Plunkett to discuss with Assessors closer working between themselves and local authorities
- Anna Gilbert to contact members to arrange a date for the next meeting
COSLA
- COSLA to provide names of additional local authority representatives on the LTWG, bearing in mind offers from both Lynne Brady and Drew Leitch on behalf of their Councils
- COSLA to advise Nikola Plunkett of software implications due to unoccupied dwelling discount regulations
- Mike Peterson to produce a list of the necessary legislative amendments required to allow local authorities to refuse the awarding of licenses etc to those in debt to them
- COSLA to nominate suitable financial expert to act as the COSLA representative on the Council Tax Collection Research advisory group
Scottish Executive
February 2005